Town of Charlotte
Board of Selectmen
Meeting Minutes
Friday, October 03, 2003
10:00 AM, Charlotte Town Hall
Paul Arthaud
Jennifer Steele Cole
Eleanor Russell
Francis Thornton
OTHERS: Dean
Bloch
Sheila
Braun
Davis Cherington
Peter
Coleman
Dana Farley
Debbie Ramsdell
Jocelyn Bolick (clerk)
The meeting was called to order at 10:05 am.
The items on the agenda were as follows:
Discussion of Varney
Farm Plans with Demeter Representatives – Dana Farley and Davis Cherington /
VELCO – Letter Supporting Request for Extension from Public Service Board /
Co-housing Discussion / Adjournment
Discussion of Varney Farm Plans with Demeter Representatives
– Dana Farley and Davis Cherington
Charlie said the
first choice is to rent it to non-profits, but the issue of competition has not
yet been talked about in-depth. Ellie
said it would be preferable to have a farmer that lives close by – perhaps in
town. That would be an opportunity for
a local farmer to participate.
Ellie asked Davis
what he wanted to accomplish at this meeting.
Davis felt he should listen and absorb, and respond in a methodical way in
consultation with the Demeter Fund rather than respond off-the-cuff. The select board presented a written summary
called the “Varney Plan”, dated September 29th, 2003.
Charlie said the fuel
for the property is purchased through Patterson Fuels; the board will ask them
what the cost for fuel has been running.
Davis said they put a good liner in the chimney of the property.
Davis wondered if
Charlotte is a town that finds itself up against a lot of pressure to hold the
line financially. Charlie said that at
the town meeting, there was pressure to cut the budget by $34,000, so there is
that pressure. Ellie said that they
have made the commitment to keep this property cost neutral to the town. Charlie said he suspects the town would
approve some amount of money to keep it functioning if it had a clear value to
the town.
Dana asked Davis what
would be involved for the town if they were committed to maintaining the
building. What sort of standard would we
want to establish? Davis said the
condition of the property as it is in mid-to-late summer is the standard they
wish to maintain. Davis said it is not
inexpensive; it is an undertaking. If
you did a non-profit, you would be the landlord. These organizations have very little money – their fortunes ebb
and flow; this could end up being a very expensive place for them to be given
their modest income. Ellie said that is
one of their concerns also – they can’t embark on this if they can’t afford
it. Davis said the gross expenses of
running this property are $30,000/year.
He feels that is a fair and comfortable number, but it does not include
the barns. That will need an upfront
capital investment to get them up to speed.
Ellie asked if there was some way to break it down. Davis said he can break it down somewhat,
but they’re paid out of various sites around the country and he doesn’t see all
the expenses. Capital repairs are one
of the big things – it was $10,000 to paint the house, and that will be a
recurring expense.
Jennie asked if they
want the buildings to stay in tact, or preserved as historic structures, or
removed? These are interesting
buildings, but does the Demeter Fund want all the features maintained? Davis said you could do a pseudo-slate roof;
the appearance is slate, but it fools most people. Basically they would like the appearance to remain the same. Davis said it’s a dilemma – the best thing
for the town is to retain enough land and access there, and to sell the
buildings to someone who has the money to maintain it. Take the proceeds of the sale and invest that
in an endowment for the park with some sort of matching fund. Davis feels that’s one of the least risky
scenarios. He feels there’s a
possibility that the Hinsdale’s might be interested in buying the house.
What does the Demeter
Fund want to maintain the property?
They would not want to see vinyl siding, for example. Davis feels the property is in pretty sound
condition. Charlie said the roof needs
a few shingles on it. Davis said the
Demeter Fund would like to have a joint venture with the town to ensure the
property does not get run down. Ellie
asked if those sorts of restrictions can be written into the deed. Davis said it would probably be a historic
easement held by a preservation trust. He
does not want to make a choice for the town, but it is a conservative choice.
Paul said they would
need to rent it out for $2500/month to get $30,000/year. Davis said they tried it both ways – relying
on tenants to do maintenance for rent, or just charge higher rent and hire
maintenance done. The property
generally looks better when you charge higher rent and hire out the maintenance.
Charlie said the town
overwhelmingly felt it was better to take the property – you never know down
the road - the town might have a good use for the property. Selling it to a private individual to rent
it out (knowing that you can’t charge enough rent to maintain it) – it seems
that the property will deteriorate. Ellie
said there was a strong opinion in the town to use it for farming if
possible. She feels there’s a “coming
together” of the people in town of what they want, but there are a lot of
issues to be worked out. Davis said
that these are 2 options that the town has come down to. Dean asked if any permitting issues have
been worked out that would come into play under the non-profit.
Davis said the
consortium idea is a nice idea and can’t be dismissed as impractical because it
might work, but the traffic safety issue is substantial. The water is probably okay, as long as
people don’t all take showers when they get to work! The 3rd issue is the town and state requirements for
an occupancy permit for that kind of use with respect to the existing septic
system. Charlie said the property is
grandfathered to 3 bedrooms for septic, and if you can get an affidavit saying
that 6 bedrooms were in use in the 1970’s, then it would be grandfathered for
that. The septic for this use should
not be an issue. Ellie asked if there
have been problems with septic with the current renters. Davis said no, but he did know that the
septic had been worked on before he got there.
Right now there are 4
potential occupants: Intervale,
NorthEast Organic, Center for Sustainable Agriculture, and the Vermont Fresh
Network. Dana asked if they had given
the town any indication of what they could pay. Charlie said one indicated they were currently paying $325/month;
one is in someone’s spare bedroom, etc.
He feels that they are looking at the town to give them a number.
Jennie wanted to know
how far the Demeter Fund was willing to go as far as use of the barn. Do they want it used for agriculture, or
could it be converted for other uses.
Davis said adaptive re-use is fine; it’s pretty expensive, so would it
be practical? Also, could you have safe
exit and entrance there if you are having public events? The maintenance of the historical structures
within the agricultural landscape is Stephen’s original vision. Ellie said that it is the select boards as
well.
Paul stated that of
the 4 potential occupants, he believes there would be additional support (state,
private, whatever!) to the level where the barns would be completely restored
and maintained. Dana said there are resources
out there to provide funds for organizations such as these.
Ellie said one of the
groups is excited about the possibility of a dairy farm. Francis said the problem with dairy farming
is that there is not enough land.
Charlie said that’s where the adjoining park land comes in. Francis said that’s a nature preserve, you
can’t pasture cows on there. Charlie
said some of that land is designated as pasture; it would not be into the wildlife
area.
Dean asked about
restriction on additional structures:
what about a small theatre there?
Francis felt there would be a zoning problem. Davis said the existing barns would be the highest priority
before starting to build additional storage.
That wouldn’t be the cheapest way of doing it though.
Davis asked if the
town wants to be a landlord. Ellie said
no, not in a big way. Paul said in the
short term we might consider it. Ellie
said if we took possession in the next few months, there’s no way we’d have
anything ready. The town does not want
to be a landlord to the tenants that are leasing it now. They would want to lease it to tenants who
take on a certain amount of responsibility.
Dana asked if the town feels it has the resources to be a landlord to
this group of non-profits. What about the nitty gritty management –
frozen pipes, the snow plow guy didn’t show up, all the realities of being a
landlord.
Davis asked if
there’s a way to set up an entity which would be a small board with Demeter
input, town input, some expertise, etc.
Paul said that sounds like the Park and Wildlife Committee. Davis said he was thinking more of a
501c3. It sends the message to Stephen
that this is being handled – we’re close, but we’re not there. Whatever the outcome, it would be handled
according to the given objectives. Paul
said the Charlotte Community Trust is an alternative and it already
exists. Ellie asked if Davis is
suggesting that the transaction take place with that entity in place. Davis said yes, it would enable the town and
the Demeter Fund to continue carefully down this road and identify clearly what
the objectives are. It could end up
being a town property if that is appropriate or it could end up being a 501c3
that meets the goals and the objectives.
Charlie said it’s not
unlike the Senior Center. The Senior
Center finally happened when an independent group organized and did some of the
work for the select board at the time.
They are now managing the property.
They are an independent 501c3.
Ellie said the board
would be representatives of the town, from historic preservation and from engineering. Jennie asked if there are other existing
groups (501c3’s) that could help. Davis
said there are a lot of 501c3’s; the trick is to find one that is not yet cast
in stone. He feels they could find one,
but on an interim basis one could be formed.
Paul said the group of people would have to spend $1500-$2000 to create
it, go through a review process, and then you become a temporary 501c3. Davis said that is something Stephen might
want to help do. Then the work that is needed
to be done would not have to come out of the town. It would not be the select board – it might have a member of the
select board on it, but it would not be the select board. Paul likes the idea of the joint venture/”Friends”
group. Davis said they are always
private, but there’s a little bit of overlapping membership.
Charlie asked where
we go next. Davis said it seems as if
the sale to a private party is something that would rise to the top once this
other alternative has been determined not to be feasible. We can’t go back to Stephen and say we’ve
done all the homework necessary to determine the feasibility of Option “A”. A good interim (and maybe long term vehicle)
is a “Friends” group. Be aware that
these 3 organizations, through other avenues, work very hard to scrape together
funds. Their fortunes go up and down. Recognize that you are not bringing in a
major corporate tenant. Charlie said if
they could do this project it would help their business – more visibility.
Davis said he doesn’t
think without these issues resolved, he and Doug would advise Stephen to deed
the property to the town – it could result in a misunderstanding. He feels this is progress – a lot of work
went into this to get to this point – but he feels he would like to close out
this item by the end of the year. And
it is very likely we won’t be ready to close this out by then. Charlie said the non-profits are looking at
the select board for numbers to go to their meetings in November. He feels it is important to get the costs
associated with the place. Ellie said
it will still take a little while to get it set up; she is still worried about
the timeframe. Davis said the property
won’t go anywhere. If the process has
been put in motion and it’s agreed that it is a good idea, then that buys time
with the Demeter Fund.
Dana asked what the
town should offer in writing to the Demeter Fund now or in the future. Davis said the two options feel very
familiar. They won’t be surprised by
the options and they will be gratified that it has been narrowed down to
that. He feels they would be positive
about moving forward. Davis said they
could probably get back to the town in 14 days with numbers. He feels the ball is in his court to get the
select board numbers. Davis would
propose that Demeter do the work and pay the legal bill to establish “Friends”,
in consultation with a town attorney or whomever. Paul said Joe Rosenthal did it for the library, and there’s one
for the Senior Center. Take the boiler
plate language and change the names.
Charlie said it seems
we ought to work out the restrictions on what the property ought to look like
for the hereafter. He wants to get some
quotes on repairing the roof on the barn and the house. Davis said he would do the numbers stuff –
capital and operating.
Jennie said the
concept of the “Friends” of Charlotte Park – this group would be managing the
park and the property and determining what the uses would be, is that
correct? Davis said it is supplementary
and complementary to the Charlotte Park and Wildlife Refuge Oversight
Committee. It’s a town owned and
controlled park and this is the private non-profit “Friends” group. It might end up being a partner for the
Varney property. But the town still has
control.
Charlie asked if a
meeting can be scheduled to look at the park.
He wants to revisit the herbicide option on the trails and see if that
needs to be talked about. Stirring up
the trail 6 times per year does not seem the best approach – and the farmer
next door can put 10 times the herbicides in his corn right next to the trail – common sense needs to prevail.
Ellie said the board
needs to wait to hear from Davis. He
agreed, there is homework he needs to do and get back to the board. He will work to get the “Friends” thing
cranked up so the grantee is there and ready without having to call a special
town meeting.
VELCO – Letter Supporting Request for Extension from Public
Service Board
Jennie said that there
was concern that they would not meet the deadline (22nd of
October). There are later deadlines for
people who have come into the process later on, so they are not going to worry
about it right now. Ellie asked if they
have a copy of our questions (they do) but they are not yet finalized. They will be finalized at the meeting of
October 13th.
Co-housing Discussion
Ellie said that co-housing
presented information that they are conforming to the 1996 regulations for the septic
system. They asked if they can go ahead
because they need the easements and they are working on it. No building permits will be issued until
they have those easements, it would seem that those issues are resolved.
Debbie asked about
the boards feeling on the regulations – what action will be taken. Charlie said Spencer Harris was going to get
information for the select board. He
was going to get an independent engineer to help understand the effect on the
town. In 2007 they will take effect anyway,
so we’re just buying time until now.
Charlie said a lot of people feel it will create a lot of new growth in
town, and the board has to intelligently answer that concern. According to Spencer, it helps a lot more in
the good soils, but it does not necessarily help in the clay soils.
Dana said under the
new rules, replacement areas for co-housing are not needed. Paul said that the board is getting heat
because they have not adopted this process yet, and it is holding people up
from actual construction. Charlie asked
how that is holding up construction.
Ellie said you need to have the easement in case your system fails. Sheila Braun asked about the Laberge property
– they said the Braun’s could use their septic, but they want to know for how
long. Charlie said they don’t know for
how long. Ellie said these are
multi-unit projects, and those rules are very generous, so it’s unlikely that
an easement would have to be used.
Sheila said it sounded like an uphill battle to adopt the rules before
2007. Charlie said not necessarily, but
the board hasn’t even started the process yet.
Jennie asked if it would make sense to say when we’re going to start the
process – Charlie said there will be public meetings where there will be a lot
of input from both sides. Spencer can’t
come on the 13th; Ellie asked if we could have a meeting at a time
that Spencer can come.
Debbie asked if the
co-housing project is good to go.
Charlie said yes, as long as the planning commission gives them the
okay.
Paul said he would
support an adoption of the regulations before 2007, but he feels the board
makes a good point that they need more information on the impact that they
create. He doesn’t feel that they could
give waivers to certain people; it would have to be adopted equally across the
board.
Sheila said she
thought that it was not okay with the state to use septic as a way of
controlling growth. Charlie said state
law allows the town until 2007 to adopt the new rules.
Adjournment
Next
meeting: Monday, October 13th
at 7 PM.
Motion
made by Paul Arthaud, seconded by Jennifer Cole:
“To adjourn the select board
meeting”.
Vote: all in favor. Meeting adjourned at 11:20 am.
Minutes respectfully
submitted by Jocelyn Bolick.